In this episode of the Empower Students Now podcast, hosts Amanda and Trina dive deep into the complex and often controversial topic of teacher pay. Joined by special guest Jess, they explore the historical roots of teacher pay, referred to as “step and column”. They discuss the unique challenges faced by teachers across different states and the impact of oppressive teacher pay systems on both new and veteran educators. In addition to the topic of teacher pay, the hosts unpack the topics of the high cost of teacher preparation and induction programs that require teachers to shell out even more time and money.

***Correction: Hello Listeners–Trina has issued a couple of small corrections–firstly, the two year post-graduate induction exception in California which allows a teacher to finish up in one year instead of two requires 3 not 5 years of teaching. Secondly, the year she completed her administrative services credential, in 2020, was not the first cohort required to complete induction for admin, it was the first cohort who was required to complete the CAL APA’s–which is an entirely different requirement.

Episode Highlights:

• Introduction to the episode and today's topic on teacher pay (00:00)

• Jess shares her initial reactions to the original episodes on teacher pay and teacher preparation (01:00)

• Eye-opening insights into the historical foundations of the step and column pay system (02:00)

• The disparity in teacher preparation requirements and pay structures between states (03:00)

• Trina explains the concept of induction and its impact on teacher pay (04:00)

• Comparing step and column systems: California vs. Nevada (06:00)

• Discussion on the financial struggles and secondary jobs many teachers have to take (18:00)

• The broader implications of low teacher pay on education quality and teacher retention (24:00)

• Final thoughts and a call to action for advocating for fair teacher compensation (25:00)

Key Takeaways:

• Teacher pay systems are rooted in outdated and sexist structures that still impact salaries today.

• The step and column pay structure varies significantly between states, affecting teacher retention and quality of education.

• Many teachers are forced to work multiple jobs to make ends meet, highlighting the urgent need for systemic change.

• Advocacy for fair teacher pay is crucial for ensuring high-quality education and supporting educators.

Connect with Us:
Email us your thoughts and stories: amandawritenow@gmail.com

Support the Show: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform and sharing it with your friends and colleagues.

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Teachers are NOT the Problem, They are Part of the Solution

We are losing qualified teachers at a staggering rate. But, to be clear, teachers should never be blamed for the teacher turnover problems our country is facing. The shortage of teachers in America and the decrease in college students seeking a teaching career is a multifaceted and complex problem. 

The Teacher Shortage Crisis Series

In this limited podcast series, we discuss exactly what got us to this crisis point in the U.S. education system. Click the links below to be directed to that part of the series. We recommend listening in order. 

1. Pay Scales for Teachers are Oppressive and Outdated

2. A Discussion with a New Teacher Who Chose to Leave the Profession

3. The High Cost of Becoming a Teacher

4. How Red Tape is Exacerbating the Problems

5. Outsourcing Teacher Expertise to Canned Curriculum

6. An ESL Teacher’s Stand Against Canned Curriculum and the Shocking Consequences

7. True Educational Equity Reforms Aren’t Happening and the Repercussions are Severe

8. Gender Equity Issues in K-12 are Undervalued and Neglected

9. Courageous Teachers Speak Out Against a Serious Problem Being Overlooked in K-12 Schools

10. Forgotten Narratives from the Frontlines of the Reading Wars

11. The Revealing Reality Struggling Readers Face in the U.S. Public Education System

12. Our Public Education System is in Crisis and the Solutions are Obvious

13. Teaching in Turbulent Times: Our Reaction to “Y’all Won”

14. Educators or Pawns? Unpacking the Realities of Being a K-12 Educator in the U.S.

Stay tuned for the last few episodes wrapping up this limited podcast series!

Transcript

Trina: Hello everybody. And welcome back. And today we are joined again. By Jess and Amanda’s here as well. And we’re going to be talking more about pay teacher pay the oppressive, bizarre way in which teachers are paid and having Jess’s perspective as a teacher from another state, um, is so valuable that we asked her to go back and listen to the original episodes on teacher pay and react to it.

Trina: Um, so I’m going to just turn it over to Jess and let her share out her feelings, reactions, and knowledge and wisdom about teacher pay. Take it away, [00:01:00] Jess.

Jess: All right. Well, I remember I listened to your first episode on this a really long time ago, so it’s not that fresh in my memory, but I remember it just blew my mind because I just, I didn’t know like how the original, like, you know, the, the steps and columns, I did not know how that was created.

Jess: So that was very eyeopening. I had no idea. I didn’t know that it was just like basically a way to oppress women. I mean, it really blew my mind when I first listened to that. And then when, um, I was going over the, you know, like the teacher prep episodes and it just, it was really mind boggling because things are so different from state to state.

Jess: I mean, we really don’t have any universal Way of educating our future teachers and every state just does things so differently. While I was listening to your episode, you guys are right over in California, the next state [00:02:00] over. It sounded like I was listening to a different language because there’s so many different acronyms.

Jess: I had never heard. The whole idea of induction, never heard of it. I hadn’t heard of any of this. Now I, I did know this about California. I have a buddy, her name is Megan Forbes, and she is, she has a website called too cool for middle school. And she was actually the social studies middle school teacher of the year for all of California this year.

Jess: So she’s very, she’s a very, uh, she’s written three books. I mean, she’s. She’s and she’s a wonderful teacher. And I knew from her that she had a lot more, she had to get a lot more education to become a teacher. She’s been a teacher for about 10 years. So she has a master’s degree in history and that she has all of her education credits and credentials.

Jess: And then she talked about on top of that, needing this. Extra year of extra [00:03:00] stuff. And it was really frustrating to get. And that’s all I knew is that she basically, I was like, Oh, back of my mind. Yeah. You’re in California. You have to do an extra year of work just to work.

Trina: It’s two years. It’s unless it was only one year for me induction.

Trina: And when I was coming up, induction was new. And now they’re having administrators do it. And I was the first cohort of an administrator that, um, have that requirement on me too. Um, but it’s typically two years and you, what you can think of it is sort of like a doctor who’s finished their graduate school and now they’re an intern.

Trina: Right. And so there’s some academic oversight. In the professional world, um, it’s postgraduate units, postgraduate work. And so it’s typically two years, unless you’ve been teaching for five years or more, which I, that was my case by the time I got to induction, because I started teaching at the beginning of my journey.

Trina: Um, so I only had to do [00:04:00] the one year I qualified for the one year exception, which she may have qualified for that as well. Um, but the deal is, is that you cannot afford it. To pay for your units and some places, it’s not an option you have to pay for it. But if you don’t pay for it and it’s an option that the school cover it, those units don’t get added to your second column, and they did not get added to mine.

Trina: I’m not some bullshit.

Amanda: Can we back up a little bit because Jess said. I mean, this episode that we recorded was a long time ago. It was months and months and months ago about teacher pay and step and column and how it works and why it is the way it is and how it’s so odd compared to every other career’s, uh, way of, you know, Of paying and promoting and things like that.

Amanda: Um, Trina, can you just like real quick explain, you know, step and column and where [00:05:00] it came from? And then maybe we can compare our step and column system of pay for teachers in California to Jess’s in Nevada, you know, and compare our, so obviously our teacher prep programs are very expensive and Like take a lot of time, but but yeah, so can we go back to what yeah, yeah, let’s go back

Trina: Let’s go back because I I did get a chance to look at jess’s step and column for las vegas um, and Even though they don’t have induction.

Trina: It looks pretty similar to ours in a number of important ways but so Our as I said in the original episode our salaries were started out to be a fractional Piece of a whole salary and using the term fractional or a fraction of a salary is essential because we have to control the narrative as teachers here and really call that out for what it is.

Trina: Okay, so we earn a fraction of a complete [00:06:00] salary and that was baked into the system because that was the only way they could afford to like create an entire new professional workforce and specifically it was a third, a third of the salaries of the male counterparts back in the 19th century, right? When you look at step and column today, what stands out to me and just a few districts I’ve had a chance to look at is it it’s not a 30 more it’s probably half.

Trina: So you’re, you’re starting off at around half of a full salary, and, um, The complete salary is still below the middle class wage. Like in the Bay Area, a middle class wage is about 150, 000 a year for the bottom threshold. And you couldn’t afford a lot of things that teachers used to be able to pay for with their salaries at that rate.

Trina: But even the top top top salary doesn’t even touch that. So when we talk about getting to a complete salary even that’s not, that’s not in keeping with other public sector jobs which require our level of education. And so while they [00:07:00] started piling on the requirements, because it used to be back in the 1800s you just.

Trina: Finish your K 12 education. And at the time it wasn’t even through 12th grade, you took a test and then you started teaching, but once they started requiring college and tests and all this other crap, it’s not all crap. I do believe we need preparation, but so much of what we actually wind up doing is not helpful.

Trina: Um, what we need to be doing is, um, internship. From the beginning, I, I believe being mentored by, by various very high quality veteran teachers who have a talent for teaching other teachers. But anyways, um, when they did that, okay, they decided to try to fix the salary a little bit and they introduced the step and column.

Trina: So they knew they could save a lot of money by making it take 25 years and requiring all these extra units, which the teacher has to pay for. And when I look at your salary schedule, Just what stands out to me is [00:08:00] there to get your full schedule to get your full salary. It’s really high, especially for Las Vegas, but it requires an insane amount of additional units.

Trina: I’ve never seen a district go beyond PhD. Your district goes even beyond PhD. But what I, what I think, right. So you have to think about the fact that we’re starting off at a fraction of our complete salary and, and there are no other professions that do this. Like the South, the step and column salary schedule is unique to K 12 education.

Amanda: Well, and let’s even go, because some people are listening to this for the first time, Trina, I know that, you know, so some people aren’t in education or aren’t in California. Why, like, how do they get away with. Only giving us, you know, half of a living wage using steps and columns like what are steps, what are columns like that detailed in like what this is.[00:09:00]

Trina: Well, we have a very unconscious idea that’s super buried about what we think teachers deserve. Right. And it, it’s that teachers are going to be very poor in the very beginning of their profession and they’re going to remain poor throughout. And now it’s like you’re accepting a life of poverty and debt, it’s gotten really, really bad but that original idea comes from a very sexist one.

Trina: That was this right we, this is how Horace Mann defended it. Um, teachers are women and women don’t have to support households. Right? You’re either unmarried and just taking care of yourself or you’re married and you have kids and you have a husband’s salary to supplement. The income of a teacher, pure and simple.

Trina: That’s where that comes from. And we don’t know that that’s where that come from comes from. And that we don’t know that that’s where we get these weird ideas about what teachers deserve, but that’s where it does come from. This original, very structural sexism baked into our [00:10:00] pay scale. The problem is, and this is what we touch upon in all the episodes, there’s a lot of thinking about what teachers deserve, the things that they can do and what they can lead that flows out of this, that is very paternalistic, that has created a very deep problem of the people who have the power to shape our profession aren’t actually teaching.

Trina: It is bizarre and it is a direct, direct source. of how ineffectual so many things we do in K 12 education is. Totally. Totally. What’s step

Amanda: and column?

Trina: What is step and column? Fair enough. So you, you think of an x and y axis table, right? And each spot on an x and y axis is a little box, right? So you start with your bachelor’s degree and your first year of service, earning [00:11:00] half of a salary.

Trina: And for every year you teach, And for each additional lump of units, I think it’s most districts, it’s something like every 15 units college credit. Yeah, college credit, graduate units, graduate. So,

Amanda: well, but like, for example, when I first started teaching 15 years ago in Salt Lake City, Utah, I actually have my contract.

Amanda: And I’m curious what you two first started getting paid, you know, year one. So I’m on step one, you know, column one, like right there, right? Um, it was 32, 000. A year. Um, yeah. And Eric was in grad school. So he was getting, he was getting paid like 20, 000 a year. So we were making 50, 000 a year in Salt Lake City, Utah, 15 years ago.

Amanda: Um, what about you? Yeah. What about you Jess? [00:12:00] About the same, about the same. My first year teaching I was making around 30, 000 a year. In Nevada. Yeah, and I actually, I, I just by chance, just by some miraculous chance, I was able to jump districts. And then every time I went new district, that district would have a different pay scale, and I would get a raise.

Amanda: And some people, it’s the opposite, right? They go to a new district, and they get a decrease. But I was like, strategically making sure that that I’d always get a pay increase. And so now I’m, you know, uh, I’m 12 years into my career and I’m making a little more than double that, but you know, 12 years into like a computer science career, it’s a bit of a joke.

Amanda: If you were to look at like a different, you know, like any other career where you need a lot of. Yeah. College credits and a lot of continuing education [00:13:00] and it’s a high stress position. Um, you know, I’m not, I’m not sitting around bragging about my 70, 000 a year right now.

Trina: No, but I think that a lot of, I mean, we do have males in our profession, especially at secondary and in high school.

Trina: And, um, when I mentioned this to them, that they are on the receiving end of structural sexism and their pay, it blows their mind. And suddenly you’ve got like, Uh, like an activist feminist in front of you. It’s rad, you know, um, because they don’t even like they hadn’t second thought or can reconsidered, um, why their pay was so low, right?

Trina: It’s insane. But I want to come back to something you just said, Jess, about jumping districts. And this is something we’ve talked about in a number of episodes, but like, and I, you and I were messaging each other online before this episode, when I was like, comparing and contrasting our salary schedules.

Trina: And, um, what stood out to me about your salary schedule was it looked like another district I once [00:14:00] taught in where it’s very, what I call front heavy, where the first few steps in columns are relatively high compared to other districts, relatively high. And then the backend with, with the veteran teachers who are well educated Who’ve been there longer.

Trina: It’s it’s not as lucrative to stay. And so that I’ve seen this. This isn’t high needs climate and culture impacted districts where they have a massive problem of teachers leaving. Right. And so the way they know they can’t compete with districts that have a chiller vibe where the job is like less crazy.

Trina: And so they’re trying to bring new teachers in all the time. So they’re putting the salary package in front. But what winds up happening to is a couple of things. One, you lose your veteran teachers. And there’s no value in keeping them. And [00:15:00] so the kids in those districts are losing out big time, but also the district winds up saving a shit ton of money.

Trina: As anybody who, who does anything in the corporate world knows your number one expenses, your people, your personnel. And so if you’re paying the lion’s share of your staff or making half of a salary, Think about all that money you’re saving. And also salary is only part of your, your package. You have benefits.

Trina: And so brand new teachers are far less likely to have whole families that are going to jump on a healthcare plan. And so the districts are financially incentivized to keep brand new teachers. And let go of their veteran ones. You guys, it’s insane. The system that we have set up, and the districts that don’t have like a huge investment, like the current district we’re in now Amanda, like the teachers are far more veteran than other neighboring districts because It’s a high performing district [00:16:00] and the parents have high expectations and property values are tied to our great schools ratings.

Trina: And so they have an incentive to keep their veteran teachers but even that. Even with that incentive, our union has to fight tooth and nail to keep our salary step and columns competitive. And just recently we lost out a neighboring district and now has a far more competitive package and they’re taking all years of service.

Trina: Right. So if you take all years of service, you don’t have to jump back into some lower piece of a fractional salary. So there we’re going to lose teachers to that neighboring district.

Amanda: Well, let’s explain what all years of service means. So that’s, you know, if you move districts, district, different districts have different policies around how many years.

Amanda: Um, I think it’s a veteran teacher, uh, their years of experience they’re bringing from another district are going to take. So, like, [00:17:00] I came to our current district with, um, how many years did I have? I had eight years, and I think they only took three. No, no, it was three. It

Trina: was three back then.

Amanda: Yes. When I first started with our district and then our union just negotiated that we get up to five.

Amanda: What was it? Or all

Trina: it, when I came to our district in 20, 19. It was five.

Amanda: And now, but they just negotiated it to what? Seven, seven or eight. I can’t remember. Okay. And so I, yeah, I’m getting all of those years. So I, and I actually, so I have, I’m at step 15, right? Because I’ve been at, um, well, no, I should have been step 15.

Amanda: Like that’s where I am now because they wouldn’t take my other years. So I was only on step whatever it was, eight, nine, 10. I don’t remember. But then the columns are the college credits that you [00:18:00] get after becoming a teacher, which that’s also like, we have to keep going to school, like night school. You want me to go to night school and pay for it myself?

Amanda: And teach full time.

Trina: Like that’s what they want. That’s what they expect. And if you, if you like the financial incentive for these, getting these units is not actually for useful master’s or PhD degrees. You get a very small stipend. I have a master’s. You get a very small stipend for actually earning a master’s.

Trina: The main, the main incentive is just to get units to get a raise. Yeah. And so there’s just all these predatory little institutions running around charging us. copious amounts of money for three units or for four units. It’s really fucked up. I know because my husband got maxed out on units doing it like this and now he doesn’t have a master’s degree.

Amanda: It’s interesting you keep saying units because I say credits, but they’re the same thing. They’re like what you get [00:19:00] from colleges, right? Like to show that you, you know, passed a class or whatever. Yeah, I don’t know. So, you never told us how much you got paid starting out,

Trina: Trina. Yeah, I don’t really remember but I can say it was something like what you guys were just saying, but I started teaching in 2014.

Trina: So I have the last years in the game. This is my second profession. 14. I, well, no 23rd. Here’s the deal. My very first year of teaching. It was in a public charter school that got shut down by our County office of ed for so much embezzlement and so much corruption. It was the largest, oldest public charter school in California.

Trina: We had multiple satellite campuses. And so guess what? My year of service. is not verifiable anymore from them. So all my entire career, I’ve been one less year [00:20:00] of service than I’m supposed to be getting. Oh my gosh. And you know, when you just talked about an adjustment to the years of service, our current district will take, it’s not like you’re going to get the back pay that you’re owed over time.

Trina: You guys, it’s a shit ton of money every year that you’re not getting for not getting a complete salary. They save a lot of money. a lot of money paying us a fraction. Um, and I want to get back to Jess because, um, you know, you say you said in the text, we were texting back and forth that California is bonkers and it is.

Trina: But looking at your step and column, the only thing that’s really super different is that you don’t have induction, right? And if you’re married to someone wealthy, like I’ve known people who are married to wealthy tech sector spouses, and they could pay for their induction, they get added to their step and column.

Trina: Whereas poor teachers get paid less because they don’t, they can’t [00:21:00] afford those units. So you don’t have induction. I’m so glad for you. I hope it doesn’t bleed into Nevada because that would be horrible. But, um, you still have the steps and the columns and we got feedback on our original episode from someone in some state.

Trina: I can’t remember where it may have been Texas where, yeah, it was Texas where they did not have, um, any, in any incentive to get more units. You just had to do more time. You just had to do more time. And then I sent you an article to on the fact that there’s like a 40 percent difference in cost of living in the Bay Area.

Trina: And so I do actually think looking at your second column, acknowledging that none of us are being paid enough. I think. Your dollar goes, I think I think teachers are more financially stable in Las Vegas than they are in the Bay Area. What do you think about that? [00:22:00]

Amanda: Yeah, I mean, and I sent you that pay scale.

Amanda: That is a new pay scale. It’s not even in effect yet. We fought for over a year. With, uh, we’re a right to work state. So we do not have unions here. We have associations and it’s very hard to get things done, but we do have like a union type of entity that tries to help us negotiate our contract. And that was, you know, we got this raise, but it was.

Amanda: It was a hellish fight trying to get this 18 percent that you’re seeing. So like, imagine like that’s almost 20 percent we’re getting. Uh, it’s pretty huge. Like you should have seen last year’s pay scale. I mean, it was pretty bad, but you know, we did fight because the cost of living has doubled in Las Vegas.

Amanda: Um, and just an example, when I first moved here, um, a two bedroom apartment Was about 13, 1400 a [00:23:00] month. And now the same two bedroom apartment is about 2, 700 a month in

Jess: Las Vegas.

Amanda: So cost of living is skyrocketed. It’s doubled every single teacher I know at my school who isn’t married to someone that is making more money than they are.

Amanda: They’re working multiple jobs right now, like our music teacher is like a security guard at concerts for 14 an hour on the strip. We have a second grade teacher who’s an Uber driver, and sometimes she needs to take days off of work to get more Ubering in because the cost of rent. Oh. And so it’s like this endless, I mean, it’s, it’s pretty wild.

Amanda: And our vice principals have extra jobs and side hustles. So, I mean, it’s just like the cost of living has, I think for the whole country in a lot of places, especially urban locations has doubled. [00:24:00] So while. I would agree that we’re not quite where you are yet, because I know that you have probably have the highest cost of living in the country, maybe only matched by like Washington DC or New York city.

Amanda: But I mean, we’re getting closer and closer. So we needed this 20 percent bond.

Jess: You did it

Amanda: super, super bad. But I mean, it’s still, it’s still a struggle. I mean, people are still. having difficulty feeding themselves. And that’s just not right. Considering we are nourishing the future minds of America. Right.

Trina: That’s right. That’s right. And let’s be very clear here. Like none of us are making what we deserve. And I, I, I just, I don’t want to make it sound like Bay Area teachers are earning less than Las Vegas teachers, because we’re not, we’re earning more. We are earning more. Um, And but the cost of living is just the cost of living [00:25:00] and its lack of consideration in anything done to sort of protect teachers and mitigate our low salaries is no one considers it.

Trina: Like I was talking about with income driven repayment plans for loans. I don’t qualify because I earned six figures now. I earned six figures, which is still not even near the bottom threshold of middle class life, but in like Alabama, Arkansas, where the cost of living is low. And this applies to you too.

Trina: Um, that is a lot of money, like the lack of nuance that’s applied to these things means that like urban areas are more impacted, but nobody in this system was earning enough money. And I just want to come back to this idea that like, it is mind blowing to name this. that we’re earning a fraction of a complete salary.

Trina: And there was a local, um, nurse union, Kaiser nurses went on strike in my area. You know, Kaisers, you guys have [00:26:00] Kaiser in Nevada. I’m sure you do. It’s, um, they went on strike and, um, the Kaiser management attempted to come back when they were asking for salary increases with a step on column. And they were like, what the fuck is this?

Trina: This is not fair. What is this? This is not right. That Two different nurses working at the same job are earning something totally different. Like they flatly refused it. Thank God. But it’s not, I don’t think it’s a, um, coincidence. That’s a, that, that is also a female dominated profession.

Trina: What are your thoughts about that guys?

Amanda: Well, like I said, that first episode, just explaining how step and column even came about what was just mind boggling. It was. And to me, I, I mean, still to this day, like I’m looking at the step and column and I don’t. I think because of the oppressive system, I don’t think that I deserve like the high end of the column, right?

Amanda: [00:27:00] Like, I’m like, Oh, that can’t be like, that’s just, and like you said, in our district, the high end of the column is like a doctorate degree more. 25 years experience with extra credits, like how do you even get extra credits after a doctor degree? Well, our district has something that you do. They become a book every year.

Amanda: They’re called CUs. And, and you have to get, in order to get to the next column, you have to do 225 CUs. And the average CU is like the average little Class you would take on a Saturday is to see use. So you imagine giving up 100 Saturdays. To get a 5, 000 raise. This is teaching. Do you have to pay for that too?

Amanda: Yes. [00:28:00] There are some CUs like everyone. So there’s actually, this is such a big thing in my district. There is a CU Facebook group because we have, we have like 50, 000 employees, right? So we have a Facebook group just to navigate the CUs and try to find the least expensive ones or the free ones for teachers.

Amanda: Yeah. It’s so. So many teachers want that yearly. Well, you can only do it every two years, right? You can only get the raise every two years. But once I saw that it was 225 CUs to get a raise, I was just instantly out. I calculated the number of hours that would be, it would be like working every weekend for two years straight.

Amanda: I know. What profession just to get,

Trina: just to get the next bump over. So many of these classes are predatory. If they’re not part of a master’s degree or a PhD program, which I think it’s not a coincidence too, that you guys, we can all be Bennett. We can [00:29:00] all. Move up the salary schedule by just taking random units, right?

Trina: Because then we’re not empowered. Then we don’t, then we don’t know big important things to help buck up against this crap. So these units, these are predatory units. You guys, they don’t give us information that we can actually use, or if it is useful, it’s just these tiny fragments. It’s a dog and pony show of it.

Trina: And that’s what I’m saying. Like, I’m so exhausted with ticking boxes. In staff meetings, in teacher preparation programs, it’s exhausting and time consuming and it is a distraction from what is real and what we really need to be doing to fix this monster. And it is a monster, to be sure. But that CU thing, that’s, oh.

Trina: Unforgivable. I’m so sorry.

Amanda: So what is the highest amount you can make? Like, let’s look at the very [00:30:00] last column, last row. Cause you, Trina, you’re saying that even if we got 225 CUs, like, and got a PhD and stayed in teaching for 30 years, you know, like what if we Did check all the boxes off. What if we did our due diligence?

Amanda: Um, what would we be making a year in Nevada in, in California? I’m just curious.

Trina: I’m

Amanda: looking.

Trina: Yeah. I’m looking at it right now. Do you already know? I mean, Your

Amanda: I’m almost there. That’s the crazy thing. Like I am almost there. So like I am this teacher except, uh, I don’t have a master’s, but I, so the reason I have, you don’t need to have it.

Amanda: Well, I know. And because I, I never wanted to pay for it. I thought it was messed up. I, I didn’t want to go in debt for a master’s for just a stupid stipend. But the reason I have So many credits, continuing [00:31:00] education credits is because when I first taught in Salt Lake City, Utah, they were desperate and in dire need of elementary teachers.

Amanda: And I had my secondary license. So they hired me and offered, um, like to, yeah, just like hire me without a credential as long as I promised to get my elementary credential. So I had to take night classes for five years or something to get my elementary. And that’s why I have so many credits.

Trina: So we, we top out at year 24 at 75 additional units on top.

Trina: Well, no, I wouldn’t say on top of our credential, but it isn’t right. It’s the credential units count. So a credential is like an undergraduate degree. So not your graduate degree. Equivalent of a master’s is forty five units. Right. So it takes [00:32:00] forty five units, at least in California, to get your initial teaching credential.

Amanda: How many does it take just for to get your credential in Nevada? How many credits? Your teaching credential. I did look that up before. So for me personally, and it’s different now. So I had to take eight graduate school classes for three credits each. That was 24 graduate level classes or credits. But then I did student teaching and that was worth eight credits.

Amanda: For student teaching. So then, uh, like 32 graduates. So I’m like on the pay scale. I’m like a You know, a BA, even though I have a BS, um, I’m a BA, I’m a BA plus 32 on the pay scale because I did not get my master’s either. I ended up maxing out my student loans because it was so expensive to become a [00:33:00] teacher.

Amanda: I don’t know. I, they cut me off once I was up to like 70 or 80, 000. They’re like, that’s it. You’re out. Either you. Cash for your master’s degree or you’re out. I max out my student loans. Oh no, you are kidding me. Can I ask you a question? How many years? So, okay. You got your degree. You got a BS. It wasn’t in like business or something, something business related.

Amanda: I’m just trying to explain this to people who aren’t in the teaching profession because I feel like a lot of this is so esoteric. I know Trina wants the world. To hear this. So I keep kind of playing the layman’s role, I guess, um, because I do hear you guys using a lot of these esoteric terms. Um, but so you got a BS and then you had to go get your teaching credential, which was 32 credits in college.

Amanda: And you went into, you maxed out the debt. How many years did it take you to get those credits? And were you teaching full [00:34:00] time too? Well, I got my BS when I was really young, I graduated college when I was like just to turn 21. Um, as I went to like summer school, did it full time. And then, you know, I kind of goofed off in my twenties, so I didn’t go immediately become a teacher.

Amanda: I worked in social services and small business and I did all kinds of crazy, bizarre things in my twenties. So I went back to school. Eight or nine years after my bachelor’s degree and the cost of education had gone up so much. My bachelor’s degree cost 10, 000, but my teaching license. Cost 70, 000. Whoa.

Amanda: Just eight or nine years later, I went from a BS 10, 000 at an accredited state college. And then nine years later, I went back to get my [00:35:00] master’s in education to become a teacher. And it was 70, 000. Like it had increased seven fold in less than a decade.

Trina: Well, but that’s also because you were paying graduate units and this is, and this is the rub, which I find super shitty is we have to pay graduate level fees for our credential, but we don’t wind up with a graduate degree.

Trina: We get a certificate to teach. And that is some. Bullshit right there. Well,

Amanda: but they all they the school I went to so it took two years I’m curious how long your credential program took to get your license to teach

Trina: About

Amanda: yours just and that was including the internship which was like I think only like six months of it or something Um, well since I was 30, well, I was like 29 30 years old ish and I was already working full time And supporting myself.

Amanda: And then I wanted to go to school to be a teacher. So I just took part time [00:36:00] classes. So I took part time classes and worked full time for three years to become a teacher. And then of course I had to quit my job that I had to do student teaching because you have to work. Uh, you know, seven to four, seven to five.

Amanda: I mean, it’s a grueling schedule, 16 weeks of being under a magnifying glass and not making a paycheck. My parents supported me financially during that.

Trina: You see, I talked about the student teaching year, how if you are a person trying to, who does not have family wealth, generational wealth, or a spouse to subsidize you, you can’t float it.

Trina: And that is utter bullshit that we’ve created a system in which it is not possible to get through it without, without having access to wealth and you know what that means. That’s why we have representation issues in our profession. I had the same problem. We were so [00:37:00] broke that year, so broke, and we had to rack up credit card debt, we’re still piling ourselves out.

Trina: You know,

Amanda: why, why are all teachers, most teachers white. Because we. you know, can swing this because of generational wealth and all and the privilege and all of that. Um, wait, so I had another question for you just though, gosh, I can’t remember. So it took you three years. Oh, I was going to say, so my program, and I know some programs do this, they’ll let you do your certification to become a teacher and your master’s at the same time.

Amanda: And it’s pretty much the same classes. And so, but it’s like, I I felt swindled out of that opportunity because of something that happened to me, um, involving taking the GRE, um, basically I took the GRE, I failed it miserably because I’m [00:38:00] terrible at standardized tests, and I had studied my ass off for a year.

Amanda: Eric took it too, my husband, um, And he didn’t study and he passed with fine colors, even did better in English than me. But anyways, so I didn’t apply for that to get the master’s and a certification. I just thought my score was too terrible that I would never get in. And then later my advisor said they don’t even look at those scores.

Amanda: It’s just a formality. You should have still done it. And I just felt like tricked. I don’t know out of, yeah, cause I don’t have a master’s. Yeah. And it’s, I have the same situation, Amanda, the same kind of thing happened to me. I did go to a graduate school, right? I went to a master’s degree program and I’m taking out the loans and it’s, it’s just, I didn’t realize how much.

Amanda: I didn’t realize how much it was costing me. I’m just signing the papers, right? I [00:39:00] just want to be a teacher. So I’m going part time. I’m signing the papers. I’m taking these night classes. I’m working full time. I’m taking out gobs of loans. I didn’t realize that student loan interest rates were like 6%, you know, like I’m just like taking out so much money and I get through student teaching and it was the middle of the year.

Amanda: So I couldn’t get a job yet. And they’re like, okay, so this is how ours worked. You took eight classes to become a teacher. Yeah. Got your teaching certificate. You did your student teaching. And then if you want to do three more classes, you could earn your master’s degree. Exactly the same thing I had. So I did that, right?

Amanda: Like I took the, I took the first class. Good. Second class. Good. The third class was doing my thesis. And what happened is I went through the class, I wrote a thesis and my advisor rejected my thesis. They said it wasn’t good enough. And they may want me to do a completely new topic. So then that’s [00:40:00] bringing me into a fourth.

Amanda: You know, post, um, student teaching semester, because I took, you could only take one class at a time. So now I’m four semesters after student teaching in the program. It’s costing me, you know, these classes were bonkers. It was bonkers. And so then the, the advisor told me I had to redo my whole thesis. And so I, I did, right.

Amanda: I go in again, I go to a fourth semester of paying and I get halfway through that semester. I’m halfway through writing my second thesis, totally new topic, thesis number two. Um, I get told by the student loans. that I maxed out. The school told me I maxed out on my student loans for graduate credits. I’ve taken too long and I maxed out.

Amanda: They will not pay for any more. Oh, [00:41:00] Jess. Oh, I have written two master’s thesis. I don’t have a master’s degree.

Trina: Oh, I’m so mad for you. I could scream. Ah, I

Amanda: am. And I think me and Amanda have had this conversation before how we both have so much education, but neither one of us has a master’s degree for like this, these ridiculous reasons, like the system abused us.

Trina: Yeah, no, totally. And like, They don’t want you to get a master’s. They don’t want you to have that kind of, you know, um, credibility. So there’s no, there’s no incentive to do that. Here’s, I think this is similar to what I went through. It’s like, I went through one of these predatory, I don’t, I. The individual professors I had were lovely, but it was a very expensive private college that was my only option because I had to work during the day, right?

Trina: Oh, me too. Exactly. And they have like literally signing up for these colleges in these high [00:42:00] needs districts because they know their, their, their potential hires are broke and they have to keep working. So it’s like we get preyed on because we are broke and we have to work during the day, right? And so we can take all of our classes at night.

Trina: And so the way it worked for me was I, I did the two years of classes at night. I went full time and taught full time and was a mom. It was insane. Um, I, you, I couldn’t have done it if I didn’t have a partner, but my husband was like every so much to help. Um, but at the end we were so desperate for me to, um, be done.

Trina: That when they said to get your masters, you need three more classes and write a thesis. I put my family through so much hell just to get the credential. I stopped. I stopped. And so then when, and, and, and, and by the way, writing a thesis is a lot of work. You can get, move up the pay scale, just [00:43:00] taking any old classes.

Trina: The reason why I wound up getting in this Master’s in Ed Leadership, a whole new 45 unit program, right, was because, or not 45, I can’t remember how many units it was, but um, it moved me into the next column. It’s because I had a calling for leadership. I had a true calling for leadership. And it was during the pandemic year, and then the year thereafter that I did the two year program and wrote my thesis but I did write a thesis and I can tell you.

Trina: Having your thesis rejected like that, that is a, that is a flaw in your professor, not in you. You should have been mentored properly to have avoided this problem in the first place. I am so fucking mad at your university and your professor. Like, I want to go, like, raise some holy hell for you.

Amanda: I’m so mad.

Amanda: Thank you. I’m glad somebody’s, I mean, it’s been like, it’s been like 13 years. I’ve kind of gotten over it, but it does make me, it does sting a little bit because in our profession, having a [00:44:00] master’s degree is almost like the norm. I don’t know how you guys feel, but I just feel like teachers are so overeducated, overqualified, just, they’re just amazing people.

Amanda: And I always get a little, like, I always get a little stingy when it comes, like, I get like a little. Well, because I, I feel like I should have two master’s degrees by now, all the different classes. I took all the theses as I wrote and it’s just, yeah. And, but they’re predatory and you’re right. And I did not realize I didn’t.

Amanda: I really did not. They made it so easy and so seamless to sign me too. And I feel like all of the costs were hidden. Like they break it down and say, do you want to be a teacher? Okay. It’s just gonna be 75, 000 because I, even like my 27 year old self would not have signed up if I knew that it was going to be more than what I would make per year to become a teacher.[00:45:00]

Trina: Yeah, I wound up with about 55, 000 in debt because I didn’t keep going to write the Masters, right? And when I did go back and get my Masters, I did it through Cal State East Bay. Which is cheaper than these private predatory institutions. Again, my, if you’re listening to this and you know me and you know, the private college I went to, the awesome people that I worked with are not withstanding here.

Trina: I love you. You know who you are. If you mentored me in that program, I’m talking about, and you guys said it, my professors even said it, you’re paying out the nose for these classes and they knew it, they called it out, you know what I mean? But if I had stayed and tried to do the master’s, I would have been in 70, 000 in debt too.

Trina: Totally. But what I remember was some weird catch and glitch in the financial aid was even though you may or may not be getting the master’s, let’s say you’re not going to finish the master’s, you’re only getting the teaching credential in order to get the financial aid on the FAFSA form. You had to say you were going for a master’s.

Trina: Do you remember that? Did that happen for you too? [00:46:00] Yes. I

Amanda: mean, to become a teacher, it should not be so expensive and so difficult considering. our salaries and that we just make a fraction of what we’re supposed to make anyway. It’s just the systemic, the it’s, it’s a lot, it’s, it’s oppression of women and it’s horrible.

Amanda: It is. Can I be devil’s advocate again, too? Like, I feel like a lot of people who aren’t in the teaching profession who don’t, uh, have a full understanding of all of this will, might say something like, well, you get a fraction of the pay because you only work a fraction of the year. Right? Like you hear that all the time.

Amanda: No, you get nine weeks off or whatever. Um, I’ve heard that you could do that, dear. You could do all that college work during the summer, right? Like not during the nights,

Trina: but I’ve, I’ve heard this, [00:47:00] but I want to, I want to talk about the fact. That there are professions out there where you have to work 12, 13 hour days, six days a week, seasonally, and that’s what we do.

Trina: Okay, you guys, if you add up all the hours of work that we do in a year, it is a 12 month fucking job. Yes, it is. It is. We kill ourselves during the school year, and a lot of us still keep doing shit like what we’re doing right now in the summer. So take that argument. Thank you for. Amanda for stating that because I remember some really nasty people yelling that to me on a picket line once.

Trina: You get the summers off. Fuck you. No, we don’t.

Amanda: One of my, I have, I have a few friends that work in tech and, um, like we’re talking like Silicon Valley tech. One of them is making like over a million a year right now. And I explained to them some of my job, like, uh, they, they [00:48:00] assumed. That we get paid extra to prep lessons like they they think like they like when I had a conversation about like what it’s really like being a teacher.

Amanda: They’re like, you don’t get paid to like, make lessons like you don’t get like they like because I was complaining that like, oh, my prep keeps getting taken away or I have to, you know, substitute during my prep time. And they’re like, what do you mean your prep time? I’m like, well, we get like, you know, sometimes we get like an hour a day to get ready for the day, I guess.

Amanda: And they’re like, what? You get like a, like an hour to teach for, you know, six different lessons a day. I’m like, yep. Yep. But, but some districts don’t even do that. I mean, I agree that I didn’t get any prep

Trina: and grade and grade and make parent phone calls and attend IEP meetings. Forget about it. I mean, my prep [00:49:00] time, just my, I spent most of my prep time having students tell me about sexual violence.

Trina: So I lost my preps. I lost it. I, and I would routinely make appointments in the evenings on the weekends to talk to parents. Why? Because I don’t want to deal with the interruptions on my prep. I want to focus on the conversation that I’m needing to have. Um, and so yeah, I mean, ask my parents. I would much rather talk to you on the weekends than during my prep time.

Amanda: I really think the average person though thinks that You know, they know their kids are in school with a teacher all day, but they honestly believe that somehow we’re getting paid or we have more hours in the day than they’re seeing to do all the things that we do to grade papers, organize lessons, get lessons in the classroom.

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, there’s so many things that we clean, you [00:50:00] know, like in our own classrooms and like have to organize and kids are messy. And, like, class jobs and having kids responsible, too. Like, there’s years when I try that, you know, and it just ends up being another nightmare of, like, having to figure out, you know, like, whose job is who and how do we compensate you and kids fighting over jobs.

Amanda: And I’m like, just forget it. I’ll do everything. Like, I don’t care. .

Trina: Yeah. Oh, and then all, all the committees, the adjunct duty that we are required to do. I, I, we haven’t even talked about that. Like if you’re not

Amanda: teaching, yeah. Be a club advisor. Go to dances. Mm-Hmm. . Go to this event. Go to that event.

Trina: Mm-Hmm.

Amanda: At my school, we have to sign up for a minimum of three committees a year. What? Track us and the committees. And they have, they have all these ones and then three. Yeah. Three. If they’re not important committees, then they’re like a sub committee and you need to do even more. Like, [00:51:00] for example, a Halloween party, you want to, you know, be on the decoration committee.

Amanda: Well, that’s like a sub committee. That’s not an important committee. So you’re going to probably need to do a few more than just that. Like, so you, like, it’s, it’s the, it’s the most bonkers thing I’ve ever seen. And the first day, back. We have to sign up for these committees and commit ourselves to them all year.

Amanda: And they really want us to have, to have two big committees and like two smaller committees, like sub committees.

Trina: And here’s the thing. What’s so irritating about that is most of those are useless committees. So you just sit around spinning your wheels, sometimes caring deeply about the work you’re doing, but it not being used.

Trina: I’m so tired of wasting my precious time. I, stop. This is my commitment to myself. I was thinking about this, Amanda. I’m not doing a single thing that is useless or meaningless. Like when we make the kids take star tests. We don’t [00:52:00] do anything with that data. I’m so tired of us wasting our time. It’s a precious resource.

Trina: More so than money is my time. Stop wasting it. Somebody say amen.

Amanda: Namaste. No, I’m like, I feel a little weird saying amen, but I’ll give you happy fingers. Sorry. I’m sorry. I just don’t want to, I don’t want to have any trauma coming back from Catholic school because I went to Catholic school and that’s enough. That’s enough. I had enough amens for my whole life there.

Amanda: Yeah, I know

Trina: me too. It’s just so, it’s like churchiness into me. I can’t help it. I use the word blessings because I can’t think of another word sometimes.

Trina: I think we’re done. I think we’re done. Is there any final words from anyone?[00:53:00]

Trina: No, okay. Um, if anyone’s listening to this and they want to participate in this conversation, please do. And I also just want to say, no, we’re all getting ready for our school year. I fucking love you guys. Every single teacher out there. I don’t care if we have different political beliefs. That doesn’t matter to me at my age.

Trina: I’m turning 50 this year. I know what matters and it’s not our politics. You are precious. And if you need someone to vent to hit us up. We love you. That’s [00:54:00] it.